SPP1 - Jess Dallas
Transcript
[00:00:00] Andy: Hello, space policy enthusiasts Welcome to the Space Policy Pioneers Podcast. My name is Andy Williams and I'm the Director of Science in Space, a niche space policy consultancy firm. On this podcast, we'll talk to leading space policy experts and hear their informative and inspirational career stories to help you, the listener, learn about the different career paths in space policy and the skills you need to be successful.
If you enjoy this podcast, please help us by leaving a five star rating on your favorite podcast platform and sign up for more information and career resources at www. scienceinspace.co. uk. One final note before we begin, all guests are talking in their personal capacity and are [00:01:00] not representing any official position of their former or current employing organization.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not legal or investment advice.
[00:01:16] Andy: So Jess, I have been mentoring and coaching early career people for years and the number one question I get is “how do I get into a policy role?” And this is often coming from people with a technical background. So you have started out in a fairly technical career in geology and geochemistry. And now you are a space policy advisor for the New Zealand Space Agency. So how did this happen? How and why did you end up in space policy?
[00:01:57] Jess: Yeah, I mean, it happened fairly organically. [00:02:00] I had been working in a technical space career, like you said, for maybe a decade and I had been sort of growing increasingly interested in space policy and I suppose how you can apply some of the concepts that you might be developing through academic research in the real world.
And so I started to bring in little bits of policy here and there into my research, so I suppose I was inching towards space policy for a little while, and then a job came up in my home country at the New Zealand Space Agency, and it felt like you know, just kind of a natural progression, I suppose, from a technical career into starting to think about some of some of the policy issues. So yeah, it was just, it was a really natural progression, I would say.
[00:02:52] Andy: And was there a moment when your first kind of interest in space, was that something that just kind of developed slowly or was it, you know, [00:03:00] as a kid a passion that you always had? How did that start?
[00:03:03] Jess: was, it was as a kid, I was a space loving kid, like a lot of kids, I think. And then when I was in high school, I had the opportunity to go to a space camp at NASA and I met a planetary geologist and I was so impressed that this was a real job you could have. And I just was on this path to study geology after that and get into planetary geology and planetary science and just been working in space ever since basically.
[00:03:34] Andy: Well, that's amazing. So you've had it as a career thought for quite a long time then. So that's great. So let's talk about New Zealand. So to anyone outside the space sector, the thought of rocket launches or the new space economy and space policy is not the first thing they think about when they think about New Zealand. You know, they might think about Kiwi [00:04:00] fruits or, or rugby or Lord of the Rings.
So can you just tell us a little bit about what the New Zealand Space Agency does and tell us about your role, what you do in the Space Agency.
[00:04:16] Jess: Sure. So yeah, the New Zealand Space Agency has three core functions. It has a regulatory function for all of the activities that happen in New Zealand and New Zealand is host to the fourth most frequent space launches in the world. So that regulatory function is quite busy. And then there is a sector growth sector development function, which looks to grow all parts of our sector and develops international partnerships for our researchers and for space companies in New Zealand.
And then there's the policy function that I work in that is a little bit of a mix of everything so we'll often be developing regulatory policy. But then there is also, you know, elements of economic policy. So it's quite a range and I work as a [00:05:00] principal policy advisor. And so that specific role is working with management to set the strategic policy direction and managing some of our more complex policy projects.
[00:05:13] Andy: Okay, so New Zealand recently released a space policy and to the listeners, I would really recommend going to look at this document. I will put it in the show notes. So for a small nation, I think it's a really forward leaning and comprehensive policy. So it's talking about the growth of the sector, it's talking about national security, regulation for safety, and security, the importance of international cooperation. So, you know, I've been at COPUOS and I've always admired the way that New Zealand approaches important subjects like norms of space conduct there. And then finally, it contains a section about having an inclusive and [00:06:00] sustainable approach.
So one of my passions is about protection of the dark and quiet skies. And I think that this is the first ever space policy that specifically mentions the concept of the protection of the night sky. So that's something really amazing. So, how did this policy get developed within the agency? Like, what was the process and the well, the kind of starting point and you know, the process of development?
[00:06:26] Jess: Yeah, so this policy is an all of government policy. It's a New Zealand wide policy. So the work was very much the product of a lot of consultation with a range of government agencies. So the genesis, I suppose, was that all of these agencies were kind of looking for a product so that we were all singing from the same song sheet when we were going to international fora or, you know, whatever it may be and also this, of course, informs all of the policy work that we [00:07:00] now do in space.
So, we had this set of values and objectives that were developed and then we actually tested those values and objectives with the New Zealand public. So there was a two month public consultation that people could either fill out a feedback form on our website or they could attend various public fora that we were holding around New Zealand and come and give their views on whether they agreed with the values and objectives that we were proposing, whether they thought there should be different ones, whether there were things that should be in the policy that we hadn't proposed and then we got a lot of feedback that we then had to work through and analyze and then we ultimately were able to update the policy to reflect all of that feedback and then it had to go and be approved by the cabinet and the New Zealand government, and then it was published.
So it was quite a long process of consulting with a whole [00:08:00] lot of stakeholders, essentially, to make sure that this was a real policy for New Zealand, I guess, and not just us putting this out there and saying to the public, you have to get behind this. We wanted to be able to really bring in all of those views and, you know, ensure that we could hear views of Maori stakeholders, indigenous New Zealanders. Um, and yeah, have kind of what ultimately was a document that we felt truly reflected New Zealand's values in space.
[00:08:30] Andy: Yeah, that's fantastic to see and I think it's interesting kind of following along the space policy development in some of these smaller countries in that they are really doing it in this kind of organic comprehensive way. And this is quite different to, you know, the big countries like the US, where the policy has kind of evolved over many years and across many different departments, like the telecommunications and the launch and the [00:09:00] defense and the strategy.
And actually what they need is more, more kind of integration and a kind of comprehensive government view. So it's interesting that New Zealand was able to do this right from the start and also incorporate the views of the public. So that con that consultation, was that also open to industry?
[00:09:20] Jess: Yeah, it was open to anybody who wanted to submit. So we had a lot of industry submitters, you know, we had members of the public NGOs, yeah, a real range.
[00:09:30] Andy: Yeah, okay, great. So, for your role then in the agency, what does a typical day look like? What are some of the tasks that you are usually doing?
[00:09:43] Jess: I mean the the job is very varied, which is one of the great things about it, definitely a lot of policy analysis. So there is always a lot of research going on gathering evidence that'll be fit into a policy. So we will often be contemplating policy [00:10:00] questions like how do you regulate an active debris removal satellite?
New Zealand is often the first to regulate commercial technology. So even technology that may have been used by governments, but has now moved into the commercial space, um, it often launches from here. And so we'll, we'll be working on figuring out, you know, what the right approach is to, to regulating.
And so there's a lot of policy analysis that goes on, you know, scoping out what the risks are, what the opportunities are. What the options are for addressing risks or making the most of opportunities. And then a really important piece of our work is always being able to communicate that policy advice to government ministers.
And it's not always easy because space can be really technical. And so, you're looking to provide very succinct advice to somebody that's really busy but that needs to make important decisions. And so that is a big part of what we do. I think just trying to clearly [00:11:00] communicate what the policy advice is and what the options are.
And then another great part of my job is international engagement, which is always a big part of what we do at the space agency. And so sometimes that work looks like developing positions that we'll take into bilateral engagements or multilateral fora like the UN COPUOS setting, for example and we're always talking to other countries, other space agencies, other space regulators as we develop policies or as different issues come up.
So there's a lot of international engagement. Going on a weekly basis as well.
[00:11:36] Andy: Yeah. So could you give us an example of, I mean, what would that process actually look like? And what specifically would you do in terms of developing this um, position, say, for COPUOS?
[00:11:49] Jess: Well, often we will already have a policy in that area. And so it's a chance for us to actually talk about that at COPUOS and talk about how we do things in [00:12:00] practice. Because as a launching state, we are able to kind of put our policies into practice in a way they're not just sort of in the abstract, which is really useful.
And so there are often learnings that we will take from, you know, from what we've actually regulated to, to be able to sort of bring those to COPUOS. And in some cases, we might not have a policy position already, if it's a new agenda item, for example. And so that is when we'll work with our colleagues across government and we'll also consult external stakeholders as well to get their views if the policy issue is relevant to and then we're able to sort of take it into these meetings.
[00:12:40] Andy: Okay. So it's a lot of internal consultation and seeking the views of all the affected government stakeholders in a way.
[00:12:50] Jess: Yeah, that's right.
[00:12:53] Andy: So let's return to your career path. So you started out studying for a [00:13:00] bachelor's in geology. So could you just walk us through your degrees and kind of how that led to you studying for a PhD in the environmental considerations of space resource management?
[00:13:14] Jess: Yes, sure. So yeah, I started out as a geologist and I always had it in my mind that I was going to do planetary geology and planetary science. And while I was studying geology I started to take an interest in a field called cosmochemistry, which is essentially looking at the chemistry of meteorites to understand how our solar system formed, how our universe formed, and I decided that I would pursue that for a master's by research. And so that area that sorry, my master's research was looking at asteroid formation and I worked in cosmochemistry and geochemistry for a long time after that.
And whilst I was working, I [00:14:00] started to take an interest in environmental management, and I didn't even necessarily think that I would work in environmental management, but I was interested enough that I did a university postgraduate course in environmental management, sort of, I guess, just as a hobby, or I wasn't really sure where it was going.
I just did it whilst I was working. And then, yeah, I decided that I might go back to university and do a PhD after working for a number of years and I just had this project in mind that could somehow combine my interest in planetary science and environmental management. And it all just came together in this PhD project that was looking at space sustainability.
And it was the perfect mix of everything I'd done before, but also started to bring in a bit more policy thinking into my research as well. And that was how I ended up sort of from there on the path to policy, I suppose.
[00:14:58] Andy: Yes. What were some of the [00:15:00] big questions then that you were looking at in your PhD research?
[00:15:04] Jess: So my PhD research was looking at space resource extraction, uh, and how we could do that sustainably. Particularly how we could bring in learnings from terrestrial mining, for example, which obviously has come a long way in terms of how sustainable it is. So I was looking at all sorts of things from the sustainability of Earth's environment and supporting space resource management through launch, and I was also looking at the space environment, but also things like social license and the cultural importance of the moon and other celestial bodies and benefit sharing you know, even for countries that might not be spacefaring. And so it was a whole range of things, really. And It was, nobody had really done a lot of work in this area.
I suppose there was only a handful of people across the world that was sort of thinking about that at the time, because I [00:16:00] think Space resource extraction, I don't, it was not top of mind the way it is now. I suppose, it's being discussed at the UN now but at that time that there wasn't so many people thinking about it.
So I was free to kind of pick, pick up all different threads of space resource utilization and what sustainability might look like.
[00:16:20] Andy: Yeah. And did you do that full time?
[00:16:24] Jess: I did. Yeah. So I was full time at a research group called the Australian Center for Space Engineering Research at the University of New South Wales in Sydney. And that research group was very multidisciplinary and there were people working on all of the different elements of space resource utilization from the very technical engineering solutions through to economics and law.
So it was a great group to be a part of because we were all sort of tackling a little piece of this big puzzle of space resource utilization.
[00:16:57] Andy: I mean, I think it's an absolutely [00:17:00] fascinating area. It's one of these topics that's just kind of exploding in interest right now, particularly with all the missions to the moon and, you know, the real possibility in the future of asteroid mining and resource extraction outside our own Earth.
So I think there's, yeah, there's so many interesting and challenging policy questions that we really need to solve and to work on. So yeah, I think there's going to be a lot of work for the future space policy enthusiasts out there.
When you were studying for your PhD at that time, did you have an idea of like where you wanted to go afterwards? Like, did you know that you wanted to go and work for government or, you know, were you potentially looking for an academic career?
[00:17:48] Jess: I think for a while, I guess I had just, I had just seen myself sort of sticking on this academic pathway and continuing as a research academic, because that is all I
[00:18:00] had done into that point. And I wasn't even sure if I had, you know, necessarily the right background for a policy job, but as I got more interested in policy, I definitely had this thought in my mind that, wow, maybe I could actually do this for government and make policy that, that's actually implemented and I really, I really was just sort of, I had it in the back of my mind, I suppose, but I wasn't dead set on that being the career path. And then when I finished my PhD and had to contemplate what I was going to do next, I thought, let me just, let me just see if there's any policy jobs out there and try my luck.
[00:18:39] Andy: I get this a lot, kind of people wondering whether or not they should do a PhD and the kind of different career paths that it could lead to. So I think you've given a nice illustration there of how you can transition into a policy role.
So a space policy career, you know, it needs a combination of [00:19:00] skills. You have to understand how governments work. You have to understand how policy is made. And often it's quite important to really understand the legal issues. Yet it's really absolutely critical that policy and regulation is technically informed. So, how have you found this in your work, you know, having quite a strong technical background?
Has that helped you be successful in your policy role?
[00:19:26] Jess: Yeah, definitely. I think that having a technical background has been super helpful because a lot of the issues that we're trying to understand have a highly technical element to them. And so it has been super useful as well as it being really important to be able to synthesize and communicate technical information to people who aren't experts.
And I think that is something that, as a technical person, you, as a skill you have to develop because you're always talking about your research or, you know, whatever you have going on in your work to people that aren't at the same sort of level of expertise, I guess. And so [00:20:00] it, it's been really helpful in being able to both understand the technical information, but also work as a communicator, which I think is a really important part of policy advice.
[00:20:10] Andy: Yeah, that's right a lot of the times I think you, you've got to have a really strategic view and understanding and a sort of different way of thinking that is informed by technical information, but it's very different from being an engineer or being a scientist and usually have many more different factors that you have to consider.
So another pretty common career path is to do a space law degree, maybe practice as a lawyer first, and then go into a space and policy role. So in the space agency, do you have space law colleagues and how do you find working in a policy role without having this legal background?
[00:20:55] Jess: Yeah. So I don't have any colleagues that studied space law specifically, but [00:21:00] I definitely have colleagues that have a law background. The team has a range of backgrounds, you know, science, economics, law. And I think that, to have a well rounded policy team, you really do need to have that mix. And it was definitely a learning curve in the beginning for me, particularly understanding the machinery of government, which is something that, that if you don't work for government, it is not completely obvious, I suppose.
And so there, I had to learn a lot about how the government actually works. Even if I sort of technically understood all the sort of issues that, that I was going to be writing policy for. And, in terms of having a legal background, I think it, I mean, it's certainly useful and like I said, it definitely is important as part of this sort of balanced policy team, but in my time working for the government, I have just continued to grow my understanding of our own space legislation as well as international space law.
I feel like I know it pretty well now, so you can learn by doing in a sense as well, which is really useful, I [00:22:00] think to, I don't think you have to know everything about space law when you start out as a space policy professional, because you’'ll absorb it as you go along.
[00:22:10] Andy: Yeah, that's right. And I've definitely found that in my own experience over the past decade or so. I mean, I think there's some really kind of specialty legal areas that are touching the policy and regulatory field, you know, I'm talking about export controls or IP issues, for example.
And I think these are things we really need to have a kind of specialist legal background to deal in, but yeah, some of the broader strategic questions…
[00:22:39] Jess: Sorry, I was just going to say that we, we also have legal expertise that we call on. So when there are, there are issues of legal interpretation, or, you know, some really naughty issues that we want to have legal advice on them, we'll call on lawyers as well. So, you don't need to have, you don't need to have all the answers, I guess, if you don't have a
[00:23:00] legal background, because, you'll typically be working with people who are lawyers.
[00:23:04] Andy: Right. Yeah. So let's look to the future. Where can this career path take you? I mean, what are some of the typical career moves that a space policy advisor could make.
[00:23:19] Jess: I mean, of course, there are always going to be all sorts of space policy jobs in various governments around the world. There are roles of NGOs as well, and I think we're increasingly seeing space policy professionals actually working for private space companies. So if you think about a company like Astroscale, they're really engaged in international policy dialogue and they do a lot of policy thinking.
And so I think that probably now more so than ever, there are, there are policy roles in the private sector as well. So I think that there's a whole range of jobs that you can have in space policy, which is the great thing about it is that it's no longer, you know, a government might have a couple of space [00:24:00] policy professionals.
There are all sorts of jobs, within government and without, and outside of government.
[00:24:06] Andy: Yeah, it's true. And I think what we were saying earlier, about the the sort of explosion of the space sector and all the different policy issues that are emerging and yeah, the various companies that are working on some of these new issues, the private companies that are landing on the moon or companies like Astroscale that are, that are dealing with the policy issues surrounding in space manufacturing or on orbit servicing or active debris removal. And, essentially, there's kind of no actual regulation that governs all this. So they're really working hard on these topics. So yeah, I think there's many options that you could take.
So for the space policy enthusiast that is listening, what advice can you give them? What are some of the formal and the more informal [00:25:00] steps they could take to get into this field?
[00:25:03] Jess: Yeah. I mean in terms of formal education, like I said that the policy team at the New Zealand Space Agency is a real mix of background. So I certainly don't think there's a single, a single sort of educational pathway that would lead to a space policy role. So I think, pursuing an area of interest, but also having an eye on what's going on in space all of the time is really useful. And, in terms of what I did outside of my education or my sort of standard job experience that I found really valuable was being a part of the Space Generation Advisory Council. So I was a project co lead in the Space Safety and Sustainability project group there and the Space Generation Advisory Council is an NGO that provides advice to the United Nations and basically, brings kind of the youth perspective, I suppose, on space.
[00:26:00] And that was a real taste of space policy and action and how the UN operates. And so I learned a lot from doing that and also, made this great network of other young space professionals as well. And I think that the, being in research was really helpful because I had the opportunity to go to a lot of conferences and so I was also starting to build that network and you find that even if you might be working in a technical area, a lot of space conferences are very multidisciplinary, so there'll be a space policy element to them and so I really started to engage with that and just try and get my head around, the sort of global space policy dynamic: what people were working on in academia, what governments are looking at.
And so I really just took an interest in my own time, I guess, and started to try and bring myself up to speed with what was going on in the world of space policy. And so I think, really just chatting to people is a really great way to do that. So, you know, opportunities to network.
I [00:27:00] would definitely suggest taking them and, you'll start to really have a sense of which companies are really interested in policy and being sort of forward leaning in policy, the government positions and maybe get a feel for where you might want to work, I suppose.
[00:27:16] Andy: Excellent. So that's some great advice. And yeah, I think the Space Generation Advisory Council, I mean, many of the guests for this season actually have had, had some contact with that group. So yeah that's a great recommendation.
So wrapping up now. We're all just working on our own little project, part of the big space economy, but what do you see as the big picture? So how do you fit into this? You know, where is all this going? What gives you inspiration at the end of the day?
[00:27:50] Jess: I mean, I think something that's special about space is that it's always been a place for international cooperation. If you look at the ISS, for example, and [00:28:00] so I really hope that's something that continues, even though we now have a much wider group of countries that are actually putting objects into space or interested in doing space activities.
And I think that there are, of course, a number of challenges with space. and there are challenges like space debris that are not easy to crack or, issues around dark and quiet skies, for example. But I think it's also important to remember the sort of power of space, I guess, the power that it has to inspire people, the way that we can use space technology to better life on earth.
And so I think that that's always sort of the big picture that I'm turning my mind to is that, you know: space is interesting. We can learn so much. There is so much science to do. There, there are all sorts of technological advancements that are helping life on earth. And so, yeah, I think that I'm always thinking about that in the back of my mind, even when I'm only working on one sort of tiny sliver of space or a very niche space policy issue.[00:29:00]
[00:29:02] Andy: Thank you very much for that little thought of inspiration. So Jess Dallas, it has been an absolute pleasure to talk to you and thank you very much.
[00:29:10] Jess: Thanks for having me.
[00:29:13] Andy: Take care.
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Shownotes
Title: From Geology to Space Policy: A Journey with Jess Dallas, New Zealand Space Agency
Bio: Dr Jess Dallas is a Principal Policy Advisor at the New Zealand Space Agency. Prior to this role Jess worked at several research institutes including the Centre for Star and Planet Formation in Denmark and the Institut de Physique du Globe de Paris in France. She also led the Space Safety and Sustainability Project Group at the Space Generation Advisory Council.
Jess did a PhD at the Australian Centre for Space Engineering Research at the University of New South Wales focusing on space sustainability and a Master of Science at Victoria University of Wellington investigating solar system formation.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-dallas1/
Disclaimer: All guests are talking in their personal capacity and are not representing any official position of their former or current employing organization.
Episode Summary: Join Andy Williams, Director of Science in Space, as he welcomes Jess Dallas, space policy advisor for the New Zealand Space Agency, on the Space Policy Pioneers Podcast. They discuss varied career paths in space policy, the important skills needed to succeed, and how a technical background can aid in policy roles. They also cover the functionality and purpose of New Zealand's Space Agency, engagement process in developing the space policy, and touch on the growing interest in space resource extraction and sustainability. The podcast also includes insights into Jess's early fascination with space, her transition from a technical career to policy advisor, and her advice on getting into the field.
Episode guide:
00:05 Introduction to the Space Policy Pioneers Podcast
01:11 Transitioning from a Technical Career to a Space Policy Role
03:37 Understanding the New Zealand Space Agency
05:08 Development of New Zealand's Space Policy
09:26 A Day in the Life of a Space Policy Advisor
12:50 The Journey from Geology to Space Policy
19:13 The Role of Technical Background in Space Policy
23:01 Career Paths and Advice for Aspiring Space Policy Professionals
27:25 Closing Thoughts and Inspiration
Links and Resources
New Zealand Space Agency: https://www.mbie.govt.nz/science-and-technology/space/
New Zealand Space Policy: https://www.mbie.govt.nz/science-and-technology/space/national-space-policy/
Policy consultation: https://www.mbie.govt.nz/science-and-technology/space/new-zealand-space-policy-review-consultation/
Committee on the Peaceful Uses of Outer Space (COPUOS): https://www.unoosa.org/oosa/en/ourwork/copuos/index.html
Dark and Quiet Skies: https://cps.iau.org/
Australian Centre for Space Engineering, University of South Wales: https://www.unsw.edu.au/research/acser
Astroscale: https://astroscale.com/
Space Generation Advisory council (SGAC): https://spacegeneration.org/
