SPP1 - Charles Galland
Transcript
[00:00:00] Andy: Hello, space policy enthusiasts Welcome to the Space Policy Pioneers Podcast. My name is Andy Williams and I'm the Director of Science in Space, a niche space policy consultancy firm. On this podcast, we'll talk to leading space policy experts and hear their informative and inspirational career stories to help you, the listener, learn about the different career paths in space policy and the skills you need to be successful.
If you enjoy this podcast, please help us by leaving a five star rating on your favorite podcast platform and sign up for more information and career resources at www. scienceinspace. co. uk. One final note before we begin, all guests are talking in their personal capacity and are [00:01:00] not representing any official position of their former or current employing organization.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not legal or investment advice.
Our guest today is Charles Galland, policy manager for ASD Eurospace, a European Space Industry Trade Association. Welcome to the Space Policy Pioneers podcast, Charles.
[00:01:29] Charles: Thank you, Andrew, for the invitation. It's my pleasure to be here.
[00:01:35] Andy: So Charles, before working in the space sector, you studied for political science at the undergraduate level. And then you did two master's degrees in international relations and European politics. And then your first professional role was with Unilever in their European affairs team. So how did you make this [00:02:00] transition into the space sector? Were you looking for a job in public affairs or specifically looking for a space sector role?
[00:02:09] Charles: Yeah. So indeed, Unilever is not so much related to space it is a consumer goods industry. I studied European affairs at the Policy Institute of Strasbourg and also in Germany. We learned everything about EU policy, how it works in the EU.
And I really wanted to have an experience and how it feels to be in Brussels. And I took the opportunity to join the Unilever EU office although I didn't know anything about the consumer goods industry. It was just an opportunity for me to be in Brussels and to see how it works. Because we heard so much about the “Brussels bubble”, how it works.
And what’s going on between on the one side, the lobby [00:03:00] organizations and on the other people in the institutions. So when, when I had this opportunity, it was just for me to be in Brussels and to see how it looked like. And basically in Strasbourg during my studies, we had the visit from a few EU professionals during the year. So people that were specialized in environment, agriculture, et cetera.
And there was someone who came who was doing actually my job now. He was working for EuroSpace as a lobbyist for the European space industry. And he gave a lecture about space. And so, I was really interested in it because I didn't know that with my background- political science, I could do space policy.
So I'm from Toulouse which is a city and a region which is well known for space. And my father worked for Airbus for his entire career. So I was always from close or from far a [00:04:00] bit in the space sector. As I was not an engineer, I had no idea basically that I could work in the space sector.
So I literally took space out of my mind. For me, it was no option. And during my studies, when this person came to us and explained what he was doing as a daily job. I then figured it out that I could, with my background, do something in the space sector. But honestly, I wrote my master thesis on space during this year.
But then, it kind of disappeared because I had this opportunity to go to Brussels. Before that, I was in Berlin at the embassy working for social policy. So again, something which is really far from space. And so then it was just an opportunity for me to work on space.
[00:04:52] Andy: Yeah. But I think what you did is you found a very transferable skill, [00:05:00] by getting to know the Brussels bubble as you've said. Something that I've experienced as part of my professional career is trying to engage with the policymaking organs of the European Union.
And it is extremely time consuming, it's extremely complex to, you know, to understand how the Parliament works and the Council and all the different processes and interactions. And I found myself really wishing that we had a dedicated person whose only job it was, was to follow along what was happening in Brussels.
In that regard. Can you tell us a little bit about the mission of ASD Eurospace and specifically what your role is in the organization,
[00:05:52] Charles: Yeah, sure. So Eurospace is the trade association of the European space industry. So we represent the members [00:06:00] that are active in the field of upstream space or manufacturers of satellites, launchers. And our job is threefold. So we have a mission of advocacy. So we need to represent the interest of these members, whether it's in the European Union, or whether at ESA.
We also have a mission of compliance. So we need to make sure that everything that the EU regulates or ESA puts into paper, it is followed by industry.
And we also have a mission of I would say policy and market analysis dedicated to our members so that they know what's going on within the EU and ESA. And based on that, they can also adapt their strategies, etc.
And in my role, specifically, I'm policy manager. It means that I'm both involved at the EU level and at ESA level. And first is to be [00:07:00] aware of what's going on at the EU and ESA level. Try to inform my members about that and then try to relate their messages to people that are in the institutions.
[00:07:12] Andy: Right. So you didn't have a background, obviously, in space policy. How did you prepare for this role once you started and how did you get the background that you needed on the space sector?
[00:07:29] Charles: I think the most important background I got, was a general background on the European Union that I had in my year in Strasbourg at the Policy Institute. Because we are known to have a formation that is really generalist. That means that we can adapt to a lot of fields. So we are not experts in one field, but we can adapt to a lot of them.
We talked about Unilever. After a few [00:08:00] months, I was quite well aware of what was going on in the consumer goods industry. And during my internship in Berlin, I was also well aware of what was going on in Germany regarding social policy. And for space, it was a bit the same. Although I was a bit more knowledgeable in the fact that I wrote my master thesis on space and how the Franco German engine we always refer to regarding the European Union could be adapted or not to space. So I had some basics, but most of what I know today, I learned it on the job, basically.
[00:08:43] Andy: So you had this important kind of starting skill, which was knowledge of the functioning of the European Union, which is, I think, quite desired by the companies. So who are some of the actors that you're dealing with on a [00:09:00] day to day basis? And obviously it's the industry, but who else?
[00:09:07] Charles: Yeah. So first the industry. And when we talk about industry, for my case, it's mostly people that are also involved in public affairs. Although sometimes we can also have regular contacts with experts in some field. For example, if we prepare a position on space traffic management we have exchanges with experts from industry in this field.
And on the other side, institutions. So whether it's ESA, it's ESA executive in the different directorates, depending on which topic you deal with. And then the European Union, it could be parliamentarians and their assistants, at the Commission–policy officers within the the commission, and also in the member states representative in the embassies to the EU - Permreps [00:10:00]
[00:10:00] Andy: So it's nice. You're building up a really large network there in the European sector.
[00:10:06] Charles: Yeah, because this network is quite, I would say, easy to build in Europe because the space sector is at the end very small. So you always meet the same person. So in conferences, but also during meetings. So at the end, you quickly build a network of people you can always talk to, to share information, et cetera.
So it's quite easy to do, at least in Europe. I don't know for other countries, but at least in Europe it is.
[00:10:40] Andy: Yeah so I know some of the larger companies, they have their own independent public affairs or government affairs units. And even in some of the midsize or even small companies. But I was wondering, at what point is it that companies think, okay, we need to use an industry association to actually take this particular issue through the system? Or, I mean, is there a tendency for particularly some of the larger companies to just go off on their own or deal with things by themselves?
[00:11:24] Charles: Yeah. This, I think the main point within all these companies is that they understand that the more you are the more powerful is the message at the end. And, so this is what we try to do within Eurospace, is that we try to have enough members and enough strength in order that our messages represent a large part of the European space industry. So basically we represent 90 percent of the total turnover of the European space industry and about 60 percent of the total employment. So when Eurospace [00:12:00] speaks, normally we are listened to. And this doesn't prevent, of course, our members to also share their messages on top of commonly agreed messages. So I don't think they see it as… I think they see it more as a benefit. Also because we are quite known for our quickness, we analyze a lot of documents, coming from the EU from ESA and we give our feedback. So it's also time saving for our members to focus on maybe something else.
[00:12:33] Andy: You're bringing together space industry actors and trying to find common positions on certain subjects. So that sounds like quite a difficult task. Can you talk about some of the key skills that you've been developing in this role.?
[00:12:51] Charles: yeah, sure. So it can be a hard task, indeed. It depends on the topics, but yeah one of the first task is [00:13:00] the ability to build consensus. So on a certain topic, you will have Company A saying something, and Company B saying the opposite. And you really have to try to build a consensus so that at the end, everybody's happy.
And another skill that I developed here at Eurospace is what I was saying before is that the rapidity to analyze documents. Now, when I see an official document from the EU from ESA maybe 30 pages or so, I know how to read it. I know, before reading it, what I have to read to understand the whole document and the job is then to put it on paper and in two, three pages, just jst summarize the paper so that it can be easily understood without reading it. So this is also one of the skills we master within Eurospace.
And the other one is also a bit linked to that is when you have a complicated paper: So[00:14:00] we write a lot of papers on a lot of topics. Sometimes these topics are far from my knowledge, really technical and our job at the end, as a Eurospace executive, is to translate these messages and to give them to the institutions. So we have to be pedagogic and understand everything from our papers in order to deliver the messages as clearly as possible. So this is also one of the key skills we have to master.
[00:14:33] Andy: Yeah. So I think just to kind of contrast this a little with I guess the majority of people that you find in the space sector, which are coming from a technical background or an engineering background. And I always think it's interesting to reflect on the fact that a key aspect of policy work is both dealing with ambiguity [00:15:00] and situations where, you know, there's not necessarily a right answer but the right answer happens when you can get everybody to agree on the words in a paper.
[00:15:12] Charles: Indeed. And we also have this chance within Eurospace is that our papers at the end, even if they are built by consensus - they mean something. So it's not removing every useful parts of the paper, and at the end, the paper is only plain messages. So, they mean something. So that's also a good job with it.
[00:15:34] Andy: So could you give us an example of a specific project just to kind of illustrate what a typical day would look like in your job? And the reason I ask is because a lot of people, particularly from the technical side don't really have an idea of the day to day work of a policy person.
[00:15:54] Charles: So there are two types of days. I would say there's the back office day and the day [00:16:00] when you meet institutions or you go to conferences. So the back office days, so we are organized around working groups. Say, we have to write something about space traffic management. I know that you also care a lot about this topic.
So we have a working group on space traffic management and our approach is to have a European answer to STM. So we meet in working groups, everybody share its ideas, and then... when the meeting is finished, we have to put them on paper and try to build, as I said, the consensual paper, and then we send it out to the working groups and then we have review phases. So you have to integrate all documents. You receive a lot of comments on your paper, some feedback, some inputs, and you have to integrate them in the paper so that it looks readable and that it looks understandable.
So this is one typical task we do. Another typical task we do is read 30 [00:17:00] pages document from the commission, for example, and summarize it in three pages. And another typical day would be then to meet with institutions and share those messages. So basically it's either informal meetings that you can have with institutions, but also formal meetings. And then our job is basically, to convey our messages and try to convince them that it's good for Europe.
[00:17:31] Andy: Was there anything that really surprised you about the role?
[00:17:40] Charles: I would say I was expecting it to be more difficult in terms of what we discussed earlier in terms of technical background. I was expecting to struggle at the beginning with all technical terms, but you really[00:18:00] learn it on the go. We really touch upon deep subjects, but also in the policy aspects so it's easy to understand. Also I was quite impressed by the fact that also, I said it earlier, the space sector is quite small. So you always meet the same person so you can build relationships of trust. So it's easier afterwards to convey your messages. And if you also have an expertise, which is recognized by these people, they also listen to you more. So this was also something that surprised me the most.
[00:18:37] Andy: you've mentioned several times that the space sector is pretty small, but I think in general, it's starting to get bigger. So we're seeing more and more funding go into the sector, more and more private capital, and the development of, you know, a new space sector, several [00:19:00] European launch companies in development which is, which is pretty exciting. So, what are some of the broad issues or the broad policy topics that you're dealing with at Eurospace?
[00:19:13] Charles: So, uh, we are quite involved in the…so it changes a lot. It's also something good about the job is that we are switching from topics to topics. The topics from 2 months ago are not the same topics as today and they will not be the same as tomorrow. We also are involved in a lot of different sides.
So today I could say it's space traffic management and the new EU space law that was announced by Commissioner Breton last year. There is the close relationship between space and defense, which is more and more recognized at the EU level. It's no longer a taboo.
There's also on the ESA side, everything that goes with simplifying procurement. You mentioned a lot about these new space companies and [00:20:00] that they sometimes complain and they are right about how difficult it is to get an ESA contract and to get the payment from this contract. So we try to reflect on how best to change that.
ESA is also reflecting on amending or changing its geo return policy. So we also dealing with that as well. So the topics are numerous and what's good about it is that it changes a lot and it evolves. So that's good. And, and of course, I cannot go without mentioning the Iris Squared constellation, which is also quite high on the agenda for us.
[00:20:39] Andy: So the purpose of this podcast is to help people who are interested in space policy to actually launch a career in the field. So now I'm thinking, okay, you know, how, how can we give good advice? So I was wondering about your particular degree. So you studied political science and European affairs.
00:21:00] When you look back, was this a good choice of degree or would you have done anything differently?
[00:21:07] Charles: At the end, yes, it was a really good choice because I'm here today and I'm really enjoying my job. Maybe what I could have done more is to be more involved in space in general. So you have a lot of bodies that are targeting young people such as the SGAC. I could have been there as well.
Also, there's a lot of open conferences where you can go to that are free as well. It's really interesting to grasp what the European space sector is up to. And also what's really important, at least in Europe and in the Brussels bubble is to build a network. And when you go there you already build a network with young professionals that at the end will serve you because you will have more opportunities.
So [00:22:00] this is something I didn't do and by luck I'm here today, but I guess it would have been maybe quicker to go into the space sector if I had done that before.
[00:22:09] Andy: Yeah, so you mentioned the SGAC, which I'll put this in the show notes, the Space Generation Advisory Council. I think that's an amazing organization that has lots of opportunities for people to get involved and kind of actively work on current subjects in the space sector. So that’s a really good option.
And yeah, I mean, the networking thing, I found this myself that there's no kind of textbook out there that says this is how the European space sector works. It's actually pretty difficult to kind of uncover how it functions and, you know, really understand the difference between ESA and EU and how they operate. I think one of the easiest ways to gain that knowledge is, is actually just to ask people, and I think I've also [00:23:00] picked up a lot of knowledge just from social media.
[00:23:03] Charles: Indeed. And I think, if we are talking about social media, I think on LinkedIn the space sector has gone quite big and we have seen a lot of of so called “space influencer”, that you may be part of Andrew, I don't know, but that are trying to, a bit popularising space and try to give the keys to better understand space and the European space sector.
So that's also something which is, I think, really useful. And we also try to do it at Eurospace. So when there's a law which is issued or regulation or something, we try to explain the content of it to our followers on social media, but also at the end, we are a lobby organization. So we put, again, two or three messages explaining the view of industry. So that's normal for us, but you're not obliged to do it. But that's also quite a good source of information.
[00:23:59] Andy: [00:24:00] absolutely. So what's your view on the future career opportunities in this field? I mean, where do you see the opportunities emerging?
[00:24:10] Charles: So we, as you said, the space sector is emerging, which is a really good thing because we don't measure enough how space is useful. And by the way, there's a nice video from from DLR, the German space agency, which is called How space can be useful or something like that.
I can send it to you afterwards. And it's really funny to see, it's a day without space. What would happen a day without space? So we don't realize enough how space can be useful. And so we conducted a survey last year on open positions in industry, and there are a lot of open positions within the established industry. For example, last year, there were about 3,000 open positions. So there, I think, industry is looking for new [00:25:00] people, for creative ideas. So that's a really good thing. And I think we have a future in this sector. It's growing. So that's a good thing. And we can build amazing projects and they can serve our citizens. And so that's a good thing.
[00:25:17] Andy: That's interesting. I've noticed the growth in companies that, you know, are really seeking to make their business model based on the downstream applications of space data. So, you know, there's all sorts of companies in the Earth observation sector that are using Earth observation data. And of course, there's many policy issues that are going to emerge with that in each of their respective sectors.
[00:25:43] Charles: Yes.
[00:25:44] Andy: and I think the, sorry, go on.
[00:25:47] Charles: yeah, I just wanted to say we see a growth in employment in the past years, and this is mostly driven by startups. But we also have to be careful with that because most of the employment is [00:26:00] financed by equity. So these startups actually need real contracts in order to sustain the employment.
So this is also something we have to look after in the future. So that it doesn't create an employment bubble that cannot be sustained afterwards, by real contracts.
[00:26:19] Andy: So yeah, that is a risk indeed, yeah, and just recently I encountered someone who chose to go into the space sector, not because of the inspirational things that were being done but because of the situation of the growing space debris in our orbits. So it was the space sustainability mission that was motivating them to join. And I just found that really surprising. It was the first time I've seen that, because we're so used to seeing people who, you know, have had a long interest and passion in space and kind of always wanted to go into it. And now we start to see these new areas. [00:27:00]
[00:27:03] Charles: Indeed. Space is one of the fields where you have passionate people. But you also have some people that are not that interested in space and they see it from a different angle. You said the angle of sustainability, environment.
This is also a way into the space sector and you, of course, you don't have to be passionate about space to work in space. I really like space, but I'm not passionate at 100 percent in space, meaning that I don't look live at every launches on the planet. I don't buy a lot of space products/goodiess, but I really like space.
I find it super cool. I find it super dreaming as well, but you don't have to be passionate about space to work in space.
[00:27:47] Andy: So for the space policy enthusiast that is listening to this podcast, what is your advice then about starting along this career path?
[00:27:58] Charles: I would say you really [00:28:00] have to know how to navigate into your political environment, whether it's in Europe or in another country. You really have to, I wouldn't say master because when you're young, you're not mastering anything. You're just learning, but at least know how it works, how political institutions in your country work in order to, to navigate and yeah be as efficient as possible. So that would be one of my advice, know your environment.
[00:28:27] Andy: So on that note, you can get that knowledge, right, by doing a degree in political science, But do you think it's possible also just to sort of really be a close observer of the politics and, you know, read as much as you can and talk to people as much as you can and kind of generate knowledge and experience yourself?
[00:28:49] Charles: I think so. Yes. I think it really depends on your motivation at the end, if you're really…if you really want to work into this field, you
will do everything to know about it [00:29:00] and that would be a clear advantage, of course. But yeah you have to know your environment, I repeat myself, and whether it's by education or by educating yourself reading papers, talking to people.
So that's a huge plus. Yes.
[00:29:14] Andy: And the reason why I'm asking that question is that quite often I encounter technical people who want to get into policy and they always ask, well, should I do, you know, like a master's in politics or a master's in EU affairs. And, it's kind of hard to know really what's the best advice.
There's an opportunity cost, you know, to spending one or two years studying and usually a huge cost financially. And I think that sometimes, depending on the particular field, I think you can actually just generate that experience yourself through experience and reading, I mean.
[00:29:55] Charles: fully agree. Personally, I think experience is more [00:30:00] important than degree. Because you can see I have a European Affairs degree. I'm working in European Affairs, that's good, but I didn't study space at all. And I learned everything on the job within my experience. So I think at the end, what really counts is experience and the motivation you show that you can build this experience by yourself as well.
[00:30:22] Andy: So I think that that is actually a very hopeful note to end the interview on, actually, cause I think a lot of people struggle with this, with this point. They want to get into the space sector or they're in a technical role and they just don't feel that they can actually make the jump over to a policy role, or even something like a business development role, or a communications role. And I, and I think for those types of things, it is possible to do. I think to be in the regulation side or the, you know, the space law side, that's where it starts to be okay–you probably do need to have a legal qualification[00:31:00] to really grasp those issues. But yeah, for the general policy roles, I mean, I think it's actually quite helpful in a way to already have a technical background for many reasons.
So we're coming to the end of our time, Charles. So I like to try and end on a note of inspiration and optimism. So, what's the big picture for you and where do you see yourself as part of it? What's your overall mission?
[00:31:27] Charles: I mentioned earlier the video from the German Space Agency saying what a day without space would look like and I feel we are doing the job on convincing institutions that space really matters, that it's useful for a lot of topics, whether it is climate change, security, agriculture, etc. So I really see our role in trying to convince those people that space really is useful and that it can help a [00:32:00] lot of people on earth.
So this is what I feel about my job. I really feel that we have to convince that space matters and that space really is important. And in Europe, space is a bit too much clustered, I would say we are a bit between ourselves. And the other sectors don't really know about space and what we can bring to them. So that's really part of my job and that's how I see myself useful.
[00:32:32] Andy: So Charles, it has been fantastic to talk to you. Thank you for sharing your experience and yeah, thank you.
[00:32:39] Charles: Thank you a lot, Andrew, for the invitation and it was a real pleasure for me.
[00:32:44] Andy: We hope you've been inspired by our journey through space Policy Careers on the Space Policy Pioneers podcast. [00:33:00] If you are passionate about carving your path in the cosmos, don't miss out. Head over to www.scienceinspace.co uk to explore our exclusive space policy, career coaching services, and supercharge your career today.
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Shownotes
Title: Space Policy in an Industry Association - a conversation with Charles Galland, ASD Eurospace.
Bio: Charles Galland is Policy Manager at ASD-Eurospace, the trade association of the European space industry, since 2018. Charles is notably responsible for EU and ESA affairs. In this respect, he allows industry to best position itself in an European context, and its interests to be heard by the people that matter in European space policy.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/charles-galland-eurospace/
Disclaimer: All guests are talking in their personal capacity and are not representing any official position of their former or current employing organization.
Episode Summary:
In this episode of the Space Policy Pioneers Podcast, host Andy Williams, Director of Science in Space, converses with Charles Galland, Policy Manager for ASD Eurospace. They discuss Charles's unique career transition from Unilever's European affairs team to the space sector, highlighting the importance of key skills such as understanding the political environment, working with groups to gain consensus, and mastering the ability to analyze complex documents quickly. Charles shares his views on the varied career opportunities in the space policy field and how to pursue them. The impact of the growing 'New Space' sector also gets discussed, along with the role Eurospace plays in advocating for the European Space Industry.
Episode guide:
00:05 Introduction to the Space Policy Pioneers Podcast
01:16 Meet the Guest: Charles Galland
01:33 Charles’ Journey into the Space Sector
05:27 Understanding the Role of Policy Manager at ASD Eurospace
07:08 The Importance of Understanding the European Union in Space Policy
09:35 Building a Network in the European Space Sector
10:14 The Role of Industry Associations in Space Policy
11:59 The Challenges and Skills Required in Building Consensus
16:48 The Surprises and Realities of Working in Space Policy
22:57 The Future of the Space Sector and Career Opportunities
26:40 Advice for Aspiring Space Policy Professionals
30:04 Charles Gallo's Mission and Vision for the Future
31:35 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Links and Resources:
Unilever, Charles’ early Brussels role: https://www.unilever.com/planet-and-society/responsible-business/engaging-with-stakeholders/
Sciences Po, Strasbourg: https://www.sciencespo-strasbourg.fr/
ASD Eurospace: https://eurospace.org/
EU Space Policy: https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-space-programme/
Read ASD Eurospace’s position on the EU “Space Law” https://eurospace.org/eurospace-position-paper-contribution-to-the-future-eu-space-law/
Another interesting perspective on EU space law: https://www.ejiltalk.org/a-future-eu-space-law-a-few-constitutional-considerations/
A fascinating and indepth report covering many of the contemporary issues of European space: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2023/734691/EPRS_STU(2023)734691_EN.pdf
Space Generation Advisory Council: https://spacegeneration.org/
DLR video mention: https://www.dlr.de/en/latest/news/2021/02/20210611_a-new-animation-shows-a-day-without-space
DLR - German Space Agency: https://www.dlr.de/en/dlr
