SPP1 - Dale Ketcham
Transcript
[00:00:00] Andy: Hello, space policy enthusiasts Welcome to the Space Policy Pioneers Podcast. My name is Andy Williams and I'm the Director of Science in Space, a niche space policy consultancy firm. On this podcast, we'll talk to leading space policy experts and hear their informative and inspirational career stories to help you, the listener, learn about the different career paths in space policy and the skills you need to be successful.
If you enjoy this podcast, please help us by leaving a five star rating on your favorite podcast platform and sign up for more information and career resources at www. scienceinspace.co.uk. One final note before we begin, all guests are talking in their personal capacity and are [00:01:00] not representing any official position of their former or current employing organization.
This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not legal or investment advice.
[00:01:11] Andy: Our guest today is Dale Ketcham, vice president, government and community relations at Space Florida. Welcome to the Space Policy Pioneers podcast, Dale.
[00:01:24] Dale: Glad to be here.
[00:01:26] Andy: Thank you. So this podcast is about helping people launch a career in space policy. And for the most part, you know, people are focused on policy issues, really relating to what's happening out there in space.
So things like spectrum management or space debris come to mind, but there are as equally as many fascinating and challenging topics right here on Earth. So I understand the Space Florida organization is working to make the state of Florida the leading hub for space related [00:02:00] activities and businesses.
So Dale, could you tell us a little bit more about the mission and activities of Space Florida and how did it come into existence?
[00:02:11] Dale: Sure. Well, Florida, by nature of the fact, it's basically where the country decided it wanted to go into space. We've–the State recognized that that was a distinct advantage that they needed to try to take it, take an opportunity to take advantage of. So back in going back all the way to 1989, the state established a, what was then called, the Space Florida Authority.
And at the time, the intent was, there was an expectation that we would become, the state would launch things, because that's what got everybody excited about coming to Florida, and you know, to come watch the fire and smoke of a launch. And that ended up, suffice it to say, the state realized that that's not really where it wanted to be.
So [00:03:00] in, mid 90s, they reconfigured and ever since then we've recognized that the State's role is to be the equivalent of an airport or a seaport authority. You don't do the flying, you just provide the infrastructure and commodities and services necessary so that the commercial sector can fly. And that's what we've been focused on we've gone through a couple of iterations, but really going back to 1989.
And we've been particularly successful of late since the retirement of the Space Shuttle in, um, 2011, that the state through Space Florida working in conjunction with NASA and Air Force, now Space Force, the FAA and the Florida Department of Transportation. We've really transitioned from taking a massive economic hit back in 2011 and transitioning into a much healthier, robust and diversified space economy here in [00:04:00] Florida certainly on the space coast, but across the state writ large.
So, you know, our job is to help grow the spaceport and Florida's role in that, because a spaceport is just a transportation hub. It's exactly like an airport or a seaport. And that's the way we look at it. And those airports and seaports if done well and fortunate, become major economic drivers. And our goal is to see to it that's what happens here in Florida.
[00:04:31] Andy: And is it a, is it a government organization then, or is it a private entity? I mean, what’s its legal structure?
[00:04:36] Dale: Yes, we're what's called a special district of the state, like airports or seaports authorities. We're not actually state employees technically. But for all intents and practical purposes, I think that's what the taxpayers would refer to us as we get our money from Tallahassee. And we're, the way we articulate it, our [00:05:00] goal is to transition the Cape and the state of Florida into what an equivalent of what the Port of London was 200 years ago to the British Empire. That's to be the primary location where cargo and passengers are transiting either to Earth from the Solar System or from Earth out into the Solar System, and that requires us to have a very integrated network of transportation so that people can get and goods can get from anywhere in the world to here to get into space. And conversely, when goods are coming back, goods and people are coming back with value added from space that they can easily get elsewhere. We're not going to be the only one, clearly, but our job and goal is to be what the port of London was to the British Empire or what to the city of St. Louis was to the opening of the American West.
[00:06:01] Andy: Yeah, ok. So tell us a little bit, a little bit about your particular role. So what is the responsibility of a VP for government relations?
[00:06:12] Dale: Uh, the best way to characterize it is since the gods we answer to in Tallahassee are legislative, make sure that one, we're meeting their agenda, but concurrently making sure that their agenda for us is the right one for the state. And concurrently working with the delegation in Washington, D. C. and the administration to see to it that Florida is playing a pivotal role in the success of the nation's human enterprise in space, indeed the, the planets.
Um, and that's sort of a back and forth of educating and advocating and taking directions. So you're sort of the interface between Tallahassee and Washington industry. It's been a lot of fun. I've been doing this a very long time.[00:07:00]
[00:07:01] Andy: So are you, are you mainly dealing with the state government relations, or are you also going up to the federal level or, I mean, what's the scope?
[00:07:11] Dale: Both, both, our appropriations come from Tallahassee, but the business of succeeding is dictated in no small measure by appropriations and policies set by Washington, but also fortunately, increasingly set by the marketplace. Because, you know, federal customers, be they NASA or the military, are steady customers.
They used to be the only customers, but they're now a minor part of the activity occurring here. It's the commercial sector that's driving the economic activity, and that's much more exciting.
[00:07:49] Andy: So, you know, back in, uh, I think it was 2007, I went on holiday to St. Augustine in Florida, which was absolutely beautiful. And I happened to have a [00:08:00] conversation with another, one of the guests at the hotel we were staying at. And this, this guy's whole employment was based around the boats that went out to collect the the rockets coming off the shuttle, the boosters. And, you know, that was, that was his whole, whole job. He had a team of boats and they went out and they would collect these rocket boosters and bring them back. And, you know, I was thinking about that, that obviously his job probably went away when the space shuttle program ended.
Um, but as you've hinted at, it's been replaced by other commercial activities. So could you kind of talk a little bit about that? So what's been the change over the past couple of years in terms of the spaceport activity and the growth of the commercial sector there?
[00:08:49] Dale: Well, traditionally we were just a launch point. Uh, things were built elsewhere and shipped to Florida to shoot. But the state made a conscientious, [00:09:00] intentional decision to move away from reliance both on just the federal government as a customer, and fortunately, technology evolved so that the commercial sector could become its own independent customer.
But additionally, to move away from just being a point where stuff was shipped for launch, so we're now building rockets and capsules and satellites here that we also put into space. But it's interesting, following on your comments about a gentleman in St. Augustine who worked on the shuttle retrieval ships. One thing that wasn't anticipated that's really become in retrospect, we should have seen it, but it's, uh, it's own recent development, is the maritime component of commercial launch is growing dramatically because commercial now means primarily not only launching, but recovery, so you're not throwing away your booster that proved to be rather expensive in retrospect.[00:10:00]
So now we have to recover the boosters and maritime is a big part of that. So even though there were only two ships for the shuttle, SpaceX has a fleet of seven or eight vessels, Blue Origin's gonna have a fleet as big or larger. Relativity Space I think is anticipated to have three, and there are others, and so there's this big commercial fleet that's going to become a big part of the commercial launch industry.
So, um, uh, it's gonna be, it's gonna be like a seaport in many ways.
[00:10:35] Andy: So that gentleman I spoke to might have his old job back then. So that's, that’s good.
[00:10:38] Dale: He might there's a lot more boats,
[00:10:42] Andy: So, I mean, let's, let's talk about the spaceports then. Am I right that there's three FAA certified spaceports in Florida at the moment?
[00:10:53] Dale: Correct.
[00:10:54] Andy: Is that correct? Yeah. Um, Yeah. So what are some of the policy issues that you have to [00:11:00] deal with that are concerning these spaceports?
[00:11:05] Dale: Well, the ones in Titusville and Cecil Field in Jacksonville are they have a license and they're building up towards being able to accommodate horizontal launch and landing activity. They're not quite
there yet, but they've got their license, which is a big part of it because it takes years and a lot of money to get a license.
Most of the activity not surprisingly, is going on here at the Cape. And most of it is vertical launches. We've gone from 32 to 57 to 92 launches, I think, anticipated this year. And we expect in a couple years to be in the hundreds. Uh, so it's getting very busy, getting crowded. And there is at some point a limited amount of time or limited amount of activity we can accommodate here, but we're a long way from that. [00:12:00] And, but it's also in the nation's interest to have a robust and diversified network of spaceports. So you're not concentrating everything in one place. It's expensive to rebuild launch sites and things of that nature, particularly for the large vertical launch vehicles.
But building in a resiliency and a sustainability across the country is a long term, not only economically valuable, but a national security imperative. So it's it and Florida's positioning itself, we're I believe we're also looking at least providing state designation for spaceports elsewhere in the state that can provide a resiliency certainly on the national security perspective, so that the industrial heft of Florida to support launch can't be jeopardized by [00:13:00] just, you know, knocking the heck out of the Cape.
We will still be able to respond and get payloads into space to support the warfighter from a variety of locations.
[00:13:11] Andy: Yes, you mentioned the growth of the sector and I mean, it seems there are many more spaceports and space hubs that are cropping up around the world. So where do you see this sector going? It seems like there's a lot of competition.
[00:13:28] Dale: There is and that's a good thing. I'm old enough to have grown up during the original golden era of space when we were in the race to the moon and competing with the Soviets. And now in a commercial sector, we're very much competing with an even more formidable competitor in China.
And they have a lot of spaceports, China has a, a heck of a lot of talented, educated people, a lot of [00:14:00] money and a commitment and direction to do just that. Um, you know, America's pretty talented and innovative. We're not good at following directions quite as well, but sometimes that's a plus.
But I think, competing with the Chinese, the Russians, the Indians, the Europeans. This is all a good thing. This drives innovation. You know, in America, we like to believe that competition is what gets the best out of people. So we're up to the challenge. I think, I hope, I’m looking forward to it.
[00:14:34] Andy: So, you know, people often think that the innovation is coming from NASA and it's largely government driven, but I think a large part of it is actually, in the factory floors in, in various states in the country. So. You mentioned the growth of the commercial sector. How does Space Florida encourage economic development in the state? What are some of its [00:15:00] activities there?
[00:15:01] Dale: Well, we are, our role is in financing and putting together packages. We don't, Florida is not a state that traditionally writes a big check to a company to come to Florida. There are some states that do, but we don't, but we're able to provide a financial package that provides a good lease arrangement, tax benefits, that puts together an entire package so that the actual numbers, the long term sustainability of a program becomes very attractive.
And that's worked very successfully for us and I think successfully for the state. We'll invest in a facility and infrastructure, so that if for some reason the company goes bankrupt or out of business. Whatever the state made an investment in here stays here in the state of Florida, and we'll sell it to somebody else.
[00:15:55] Andy: Yeah, so the reason why I wanted to get into this is [00:16:00] you know, when we talk about space policy, I think generally people think about, as I mentioned earlier, the activities that are going on in space and the specific rules about that, or the specific rules and regulations about launch. But it's quite interesting to explore all the various issues and rules and regulations and policies and activities that are going on around the spaceports and the economic development of the area and the intersection, as you mentioned, with the maritime sector and the commercial aviation. So it seems like there are many challenging opportunities and policy issues that space policy people can work towards right here on Earth.
[00:16:46] Dale: Yeah, I think the way we look at it is that the you know, running a spaceport and if it's indeed being as successful as we hope it will be and should be as as [00:17:00] a, an aggressive and robust and vibrant economic development engine, uh, maintaining that, making sure that engine is running smoothly and not just purely to support it the activities in space going to and from, but making sure no less that those of us who live here and support this activity and the community, the environment, the wildlife just the general health and wellbeing of the state of Florida is benefiting. We don't wanna be just a place to step over to get to space.
We're gonna offer a lot to make this a place where your, your companies are gonna want to come because it's a great quality of life and your skill, skilled talent that can go elsewhere if they want, are gonna wanna stay here. There's a, you know, there's a lot of excitement with the fire and smoke of launch, and for many people it's a bucket list issue to go see a [00:18:00] launch. But when we start getting up into the hundreds and hundreds, the allure of that is going to wear off but we still are going to need to make sure that we have you know, clean water, a good education system and just a great place to live and raise your family.
So our responsibility is to support the industry that's going to take advantage and expand the human enterprise in space, but also to make sure that it's good for the people who are helping that come about.
[00:18:33] Andy: Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for sharing that perspective. So this is mainly a a careers focused podcast. So could you briefly walk us through your career path? Where did your interest in space begin? And, how did you get to your current role now?
[00:18:50] Dale: Well, I I hadn't really thought of it, but in many ways, I didn't really have a choice. I had to be involved in space because, uh, I [00:19:00] was born in Miami, but my dad was the first city manager of Cocoa Beach when it was taken off with the space program and he moved us up here three years before NASA was created.
I learned to walk on Cocoa Beach, grew up with the original seven astronauts and just grew up in Cocoa Beach throughout the whole space program. So, you know, it was space is, it was a company town and the business was space. And I've been here ever since with the exception of going off to the University of Florida to get a degree.
But I got my degree in philosophy and I don't regret that at all. And came back and immediately went to work for Rockwell International on the shuttle program and have been involved in the space program either directly or indirectly ever since. It's been a great run. It's a great field. Beats the hell out of selling washing machines.
It's just, there's always something new. You have your, you have your very bad days when you know, astronauts are lost. Those are [00:20:00] particularly bad days and memorable, whether it's Apollo One or Columbia or Challenger. And, but the opportunity to just, go outside and watch a launch, see your work pay off. That's, that's pretty cool. And now you get to watch the vehicle come back, which is almost more cool.
So, but I think from the perspective of a young person who's deciding what career they want to pursue and for generations that follow, I, you know, I think the neat thing what's excites me, having seen everything I've seen is the fact that we're now at a point where the price is dropping to get into space and the reliability and safety is going up. That you're really getting to a point of where the whole human enterprise in space is going to become available to more and more people.
And we sort of look at that as like the [00:21:00] early days of the internet, where people were like, “well, that's really cool. I wonder what I can do with that?” And, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, people, were kind of poking around at neat ideas with the internet, and now, we couldn't go a couple hours without it.
And what's going to happen in space as human ingenuity, enterprise, imagination and profit motive expand in space it's going to be like the internet. We have no idea what it's going to manifest itself as. And because it involves humans, all of it isn't going to be really great. They'll be a dark side.
But I think all things considered what, um, the internet has brought in broadband and expanding communications and knowledge and capability it'll be more good than bad. And we're just excited that that's going to come that, that future is out there for all of humanity, not just [00:22:00] Floridians and Americans. But if we do this right, it should be something that's that all humanity is going to be able to take advantage of. And I think by and large, it's going to be a much better thing than it is downside. But because humans are involved, there will be a downside.
[00:22:17] Andy: Yeah, it's definitely exciting times. And I really liked this comparison to the internet. I mean, the, you know, back when it started sort of people's view of what was really possible was quite limited. And yeah, it was amazing then what happens is just the explosion of different possibilities and different whole companies and enterprises and sectors created just, just from that.
So we’re starting to see the sort of hints that this is happening, like with the in space manufacturing and, you know, the cislunar economy starting up.
[00:22:51] Dale: Oh, yeah. And the people who can, the people with the vision to see what this can become will be [00:23:00] tomorrow's millionaires and billionaires and quite possibly trillionaires. So again it's, we have no idea what's really going to come about, but it's going to be very exciting. It's going to be humanity really being able to flourish in a, in a human way which is exciting, a little disquieting, but it's gonna happen anyway, so we'll just have to hope we do it well.
[00:23:31] Andy: Yeah. So what advice could you give then specifically for someone who has maybe done a degree in in political science or government affairs or international relations, and, they're looking for a career path in this policy role, the kind of government affairs role, which, I think is a very desirable path, actually, for many.
[00:23:53] Dale: Something that has, I've found to be an interesting guidepost for me was [00:24:00] probably about 15 years ago young man I knew who had recently graduated from law school, uh, asked me to read a paper that he was getting ready to publish. And it was comparing the opening of human enterprise in space to the opening of the Wild West in the United States.
And there, there's long been conversation that you'll be certainly attentive to relative to, you know, what, what does the law allow, what does international law allow, permit, deny in space? As, as we argue about who's able to own what, can you own anything? Things of that nature. And the thesis of the paper was that the law is always a following activity.
That humanity is going to go into space. It's not going to wait for the law to become established. It's going to go into space, like people went [00:25:00] into the American West and established farming and logging and mining and a whole host of other things. And then the law catches up and adapts to the best practices of those activities.
Now that, I, and, cause I, I think trying to get, you know, go to the UN and get consensus on what we're allowed to do is going to be a challenge if people are waiting on that. And I don't really think between us and the Chinese and others, um, hopefully we do this well, like I said there is a way hopefully the better angels of human nature will dominate.
Um, but I think just a recognition that everything, much of the human activity in space is going to be in advance of a legal framework. [00:26:00] So, that to me would mean you know, that's going to be intriguing challenges for people involved in policy. Because it as the price lowers and new technologies and new means to get into space, as that broadens across the sphere of humanity. It's gonna be a lot like the opening in the American West. And, you know, the idea of space being like the wild, wild west when that term is used in the pejorative is as I said, disquieting. Um, but in many ways, I don't know that's avoidable.
But let's hope as we manage this going forward, it's done well. It's kind of like the same challenge we have here at the Spaceport. We want to grow the industry but not at the expense of the community in which it's occurring. That can be done poorly or it can be done well. Let's just pray and work [00:27:00] hard that it's done well.
[00:27:02] Andy: Yeah, I see one of the biggest policy challenges that I think people really have to think about in terms of orienting their, their career and their mission is exactly as you've framed it: this kind of tension between the need to advance rapidly and to learn from innovation as you go versus, to have a overarching kind of rule set that is focused on sustainability and protection and equality of access and there's this really big tension that's there. And I mean, we see it play out at all levels and particularly at the UN, the UN Committee on the Peaceful uses of Outer Space. So, yeah this to me is one of the really big topics about how, how we can design regulatory frameworks that navigate that tension in the right way. [00:28:00] that is a difficult task.
[00:28:01] Dale: Yes. Well, to me, it's analogous to managing well AI and probably a host of other issues. It's sort of the challenge that we find ourselves in as a society and a culture and humans that technology has put us in this place. And but I guess from my perspective, what we will be successful if we establish a framework, that is, you know, you're not going to impose a framework that's going to work, even if you put the best framework in place, as soon as you put it there, things, people and technology are going to continue to evolve and change, and you're going to have it, as soon as you put it in place, it's going to be out of date.
So how do we put in [00:29:00] place something that can evolve, mature and respond positively to the challenges that are going to arise? It's never going to get perfect. You can do it better. Or, you know, let's do it well instead of poorly.
[00:29:19] Andy: Yeah. So Dale, we are getting to the end of our time. Um, can you give a final word of advice to all the space policy enthusiasts out there?
[00:29:30] Dale: In many ways, I'd like to say, I wish I was young but then I would have missed all that I went through, which was great. I wouldn't trade it for a million years. But I can only begin to imagine what cool stuff we're going to encounter, what great challenges we're going to encounter in space. I mean, there's, you know, there's so much to learn about the cosmos.
There's so many challenges to confront [00:30:00] humanity and what it means to be human in the future. And how do we maintain that humanity and continue to mature and evolve in a direction that is positive and again, is led by the better angels of our nature and not the darker ones.
I'm, there's disquietus in that, but I'm optimistic. It's not going to be, not going to be pretty all the time, but I think we're going to get there. I'm excited.
[00:30:32] Andy: Me too. Well, Dale, it's been a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you very much.
[00:30:38] Dale: Thank you.
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Shownotes
Title: Space Policy on the Ground - A conversation with Dale Ketcham, Space Florida
Bio: 1 - 2 paragraph bio[a]
https://www.linkedin.com/in/dale-ketcham-82498413/
Disclaimer: All guests are talking in their personal capacity and are not representing any official position of their former or current employing organization.
Episode Summary:
In this informative episode of the Space Policy Pioneers Podcast, host Andy Williams, Director of Science in Space interviews Dale Ketchum, the Vice President of Government and Community Relations at Space Florida. The conversation delves into the mission and activities of Space Florida, its evolution since inception, and the state of Florida's emergence as a leading hub for space-related activities. Dale lays out the importance of space policy on Earth, the increasing intersection of commercial aviation and maritime sectors with space, and the future opportunities available with the rapid growth of commercial enterprise in space.
Episode Summary
00:05 Introduction to the Space Policy Pioneers Podcast
01:11 Meet Our Guest: Dale Ketcham, VP at Space Florida
01:49 Understanding Space Florida's Mission and Activities
04:25 The Role of Government in Space Florida
08:24 The Evolution of Spaceport Activity and Commercial Sector Growth
10:31 Policy Issues Concerning Spaceports
12:44 The Future of the Space Sector
14:17 Economic Development and Space Florida
17:56 Career Path and Advice for Aspiring Space Policy Professionals
29:41 Conclusion: The Exciting Future of Space Policy
Links and Resources:
Space Florida: https://www.spaceflorida.gov/
Florida Spaceport Office: https://www.fdot.gov/spaceport
https://www.faa.gov/space/spaceports_by_state
Deloitte Report on Spaceports: https://www.flsenate.gov/Committees/billsummaries/2023/html/3163
https://spacenews.com/cape-congestion-worlds-busiest-spaceport-stretched-to-its-limits/
https://www.kennedyspacecenter.com/explore-attractions/nasa-now/spaceport-ksc
[a]@[email protected] Hi Dale - please add a 1 - 2 paragraph bio here, or email me it.
_Assigned to [email protected]_